I believe the suggestion made by Paul Wakfer about providing a
stimulating environment (mice would still be in cages) was because
one researcher, who felt guilty about starving his mice, made it up
to them by giving them toys and petting them. He was told that
might bias his results (control group didn’t get toys), so he
repeated the study and gave non calorie restricted control mice an
engaging, stimulating environment. When he did, he observed as much
life extension effect in them as he saw in calorie restricted mice.
That is, the ad libitum mice who ate as much as they liked lived As
Much Longer as had been observed in the CR mice.
What is most needed here is for members to review the literature,
so as not to unnecessarily repeat research (and possible mistakes
made) by others.
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On Thu, 08 Jan 2015 16:32:54 -0800 “Elliot Temple”
>On Jan 6, 2015, at 2:29 PM, Paul Wakfer
>> On 15-01-06 11:19 AM, Craig Cooney wrote:
>>> Dear Edouard,
>>> Thank you for sharing your ppt with us. Because I didn’t see
>many specifics on how the studies will be run my recommendations
>include using purified diets like AIN-93 (not NIH-31) and to
>measure diet intake to determine treatment dosage and to monitor
>for inadverent CR effects. Also HET mice (Dave Harrison’s
>recommendation) would be best but another good option (less
>expensive) would be a well established cross (albeit if only an
>F1) such as B6C3F1 mice as Steve Spindler used in some of his
>studies. Inclusion of positive controls of CR mice in the diet
>studies and known life extending genes in the TG studies (like the
>Maria Blasco papers I sent today) is important.
>> As Craig pointed out, CR controls are just as important as
>regular controls and all treatment groups should be monitored for
>crypto-CR since very often with anything at all foreign to a
>normal mouse food intake, there will be an automatic reduction of
>intake, which in itself will have a life/health extending effect
>if not too great.
>> I would also suggest that all the mice be in similar enriched
>environments rather than the totally unrealistic small cages with
>nothing of interest to do.
>Why not cages? Please explain your reasoning.
>If your suggestion is correct, it will be more persuasive if
>explained. And people won’t be able to implement it correctly
>without understanding what they are doing and why.
>(I say this not to criticize the lack of detail upfront. I have no
>objection there. You can’t and shouldn’t preemptively elaborate on
>everything. I am trying to explain why my question – and the
>additional details it asks for – are important to the anti-aging
>mission at GRG. Because these issues matter to how to do
>scientific experiments related to the GRG mission.)
>One issue I see here is the concept that mice are like people with
>interests, rather than being like non-intelligent computer
>software with algorithms. Does anyone want to discuss that? Why do
>you think that? It is relevant to GRG mission b/c it’s relevant to
>how to do mice experiments which are important for anti-aging
>Has a mouse ever done anything that contradicts the algorithmic
>not-people-like view of mice? I’m not aware of anything despite
>looking and asking various people in the past. And if all mouse
>behavior is compatible with the algorithmic view, why reject it?
>This is all crucial to the GRG anti-aging mission because getting
>experiments right – in every little detail – can be the difference
>between correct and incorrect scientific conclusions. And also
>money is limited, so it’s important to know whether it’s necessary
>to spend money on something more than cages, and if so precisely
>what parameters it needs to have in detail (and note they need to
>be clearly defined and repeatable).
>> In addition, the experiments should not be done with certain
>isolated ingredients that may increase requirements for other
>ingredients. Rather each diet needs to be a fully consistent whole
>to the extent that is known or even suspected. There are many such
>interactions, some of which are well known but many of which are
>not. Therefore, it would be a good idea to post to this list and
>elsewhere the precise entire set of parameters planned for each
>mouse group *before* any further action is taken, so that all such
>potentially negative problems can be eliminated (at least all that
>are currently known by members of the groups to which you post).
>I agree about this, I think it makes sense. I also agree about the
>importance of controls, as explained above.
>I would similarly urge that, before the experiment is done, write
>a very clear, exact and list of the mouse habitat parameters (if
>the interesting non-cage approach is taken). It needs to be be
>specified well enough to be reproducible by other research groups
>exactly enough to qualify as replicating the same experiment. And
>it needs to be carefully thought out enough to serve as a kind of
>standard that future research could use, so we don’t end up with a
>bunch of different mouse studies using different habitats making
>the results potentially not comparable. (Maybe there already is
>such a standard? I don’t know. If so it’d be great to post that
>for discussion of any flaws it might have that could be worth